The treat the employees as if they were worthless. Lastly, the money!!!! All Access Digital offer for just 99 cents! On March 30, 2021, Save Mount Diablo filed a lawsuit challenging the City of Pittsburg's approval of the Seeno-owned Discovery Builders' 1,650-unit Faria project, on the ridgeline between Pittsburg and Concord. But the developers promised to also build a youth recreation center at the project site and preserve 265 additional acres of land as open space. We were the "Face on The Company.". And in 2018, Seeno filed a lawsuit to halt the naval weapons station from being developed by a company that beat it and other groups to become the project's master developer. In December 2016, he entered a guilty plea to bank fraud on behalf of his company and agreed to pay a $11 million fine. Discovery Sales was prosecuted as a company. The U.S. Navy transferred almost 2,216 acres of the defunct weapons station to the district in 2019 to create a new regional park in partnership with the National Park Service. They tend to let those they really like stay at high volume communities which keeps the same people as the highest earners. The prosecution is the result of an investigation by the FBI, with assistance from IRS-CI and FHFA-OIG. Not once, was there any kind of staff meeting of the department. The long-running case began in the early 1980s when homeowners at a Seeno development in Pittsburg sued the construction company for about $30 million in damage to their homes caused by. The location is great, close to shopping centers, grocery stores, BART, park and ride, gas stations, and the freeway. Compare and save your favorite communities and floorplans with MyDeNova. I am very grateful for the opportunity to work for a such a great family owned business. During the entire time I was there, I never met the HR Manager. The suit was filed earlier this month, almost three weeks before the developers and Faria Land Investors were scheduled to ask the Pittsburg City Council on Monday to approve their master plan, environmental documents and development agreement to build up to 1,500 homes. 27 February 2023 . They also successfully pressed for a development agreement that precludes the companies from suing the city at some future point. It will be rescheduled, city officials said. Save Mount Diablos lawsuit challenges the February 22, 2021 approval of the Faria project by the Pittsburg City Council. All of these testimonials and reviews for Seeno Homes are from verified homebuyers. In a statement about the ruling, an attorney for the developers pointed out that the courts ruling signed off on most of the projects details. Seenos Discovery Builders and Faria Land Investors filed suit to stop the new regional park. Argentina. Please click "I Accept" to acknowledge our policy and the use of this information to help operate our site and for analytics, personalization and advertising purposes. A.D. Seeno Construction Co. Community Homes Sales, Inc. Shahids plea agreement explained that it was important to the scheme to maintain inflated property values because if the home and property values dropped, the value of the collateral would drop and the line of credit would be put at risk. The company was also placed on probation for five years, which gives the federal government another way to ensure payments are made, Hemann said. The property is between Kirker Pass Road and Highway 4. Specifically, Shahid ensured the details of the incentives that were being given to specific buyers would not appear in the bank loan files because the loan-to-value ratio would not support the requested loan on the inflated sales price of the home. Sentencing Guidelines and the federal statute governing the imposition of a sentence. Get Morning Report and other email newsletters. Single Family Homes and DuetsRio Vista, CA, 1,090 - 1,569 Sq. Lennar Homes, the nations second-largest homebuilder, is seeking a court order overturning La Habras November vote blocking its Rancho La Habra project on the Westridge Golf Club. The problem with that project is what theyre doing is building on open space, Lees said. Developers have thrown a wrench into the East Bay Regional Park Districts decades-old plan to create a regional park in the Pittsburg hills overlooking the former Concord Naval Weapons Station site. He previously reported in Contra Costa County and before joining the Bay Area News Group he worked in Eureka and Santa Barbara. Open space, habitat for wildlife, and the communitys scenic views have won the day, and poorly planned development will not go forward, for now. Three Bay Area men, including justice reform activist, plead guilty in Norteo RICO murder case, Californias hardest to book campground isnt in a famous park. The companies also previously sued the Navy to halt it from transferring its property for any development. driving a golf cart and free Biscotti cookies at the office. As a result, rare habitat for special status species would be lost. Is the vulgar anti-Tesla sign on my neighbors truck illegal? All content is posted anonymously by employees working at Discovery and Seeno Homes. This employer has not claimed their Employer Profile and is missing out on connecting with our community. Judith Prieve is a reporter and editor for the Bay Area News Group who covers eastern Contra Costa County for the East Bay Times and The Mercury News. According to Shahids plea agreement that was unsealed today, DSI was created to sell new homes built by Discovery Builders Inc. (DBI), Albert D. Seeno Construction Co. Inc. (AD Seeno) and other entities affiliated with Albert Seeno III and the Seeno family. Surrounded by residential neighborhoods and the Westridge Plaza shopping center, its the last piece of developable private property in the area, the lawsuit said. Luminescence will feature Our New Home Specialist is here to answer any questions you have to help choose the home thats right for you. Two of three former Seeno employees who cooperated with FBI investigators have yet to be sentenced for their guilty pleas as part of this scheme. Management was untrained and one ruler ( Ayman) CEO was the last word although this was a love hate relationship. Employees are treated badly daily. Who let the Seenos into Pittsburg and why havent they all been kicked out of Pittsburg and other places long ago? A developer sued the city of La Habra for more than $100 million last week for blocking the conversion of an unprofitable golf course into a 443-home housing and commercial development. Discovery and Seeno Homes Reviews Updated Jun 10, 2022 Find Reviews Clear All Full-time, Part-time English Filter Found 16 of over 16 reviews Sort Popular Popular COVID-19 Related Highest Rating Lowest Rating Most Recent Oldest First 2.9 39 % Recommend to a Friend 55 % Approve of CEO Albert Seeno Sr. 4 Ratings We very much appreciate owning a Seeno built home and would not hesitate to purchase another one." Dallas and Judy Ask Our Sales Reps How You Can Customize Your Own Incentive! ", "This is to convey our thanks and appreciation for the outstanding services my husband and I have received from Seeno. Verify your email to use filters. Discover your perfect home in a DeNova community. In order to support the functionality of our website and to tailor our ads to match your likely interests, we and our service providers collect information about your use of this site. But he prefers to see it built in existing infill areas. The best aspects about working for Seeno was the income that you could achieve. Both urged city staff to make sure that key features of the eventual development including a guarantee that 25% of the new homes would be affordable survive the negotiations. Enter your email address and well send you a link to reset your password. The district is creating a large regional park on the former weapons site. We are very happy with the courts decision.. The family of builders has earned a reputation for engaging in drawn-out legal battles against public agencies and environmental groups, though the companies have also fostered a strong relationship with local labor unions. The Concord Hills Regional Park Land Use Plan provides for public access, preserves 95 percent of the areas natural habitat, and honors the unique natural and human history of the land. 39% of employees would recommend working at, According to anonymously submitted Glassdoor reviews, Discovery and Seeno Homes employees rate their compensation and benefits as 2.6 out of 5. Seeno III has also been the subject of controversy. Just keeping the buyers spirits up and pushing time lines along with construction and financing. Miss Manners: I shouldn't call because the phone scares people? Dennis Lund: George Zimmermans Oxbow Incident. The districts board of directors approved the parks land-use plan and associated environmental impact report on July 7, paving the way for development of the more than 2,540-acre regional park. Because Shahid is cooperating with the ongoing FBI investigation, a sentencing date has not yet been scheduled. Scott Adams faces 'consequence culture' as U.S. newspapers drop Dilbert, Tom Cruise's 'ditching' of Suri showcased by Judd Apatow's 'co-parenting' joke, ex-Scientology exec says. The Sales Management is sexist and entitled. We identified deficiencies in the CEQA review, he said. If you are looking to get your feet wet in the new home industry give them a try but dont have high expectations. NewHomeSource.com is a trademark of Builders Digital Experience, LLC and all other marks are either trademarks or registered trademarks of their respective owners. This is a major victory for Pittsburgs hills, Save Mount Diablo Land Conservation Director Seth Adams said in a statement. More than 325 Seeno and Discovery homes, exceeding $200 million in sales, were used in the scheme, resulting in an estimated $75 million loss to Wells Fargo and JP Morgan Chase banks. Management showed FAVORTISM to a selected few which were put at the best communities and were able to double dip in commissions. The overall vibe is a somber place to work. We all know Seeno runs Pittsburg, and is the areas worst example of environmental consciousness. Those units represent approximately 60,000 new car trips per day that will soon impact local roads and Highway 4. Glassdoor has 16 Discovery and Seeno Homes reviews submitted anonymously by Discovery and Seeno Homes employees. James Colopy of Farella Braun + Martel, the legal firm representing Discovery Builders, said his client years earlier had expressed concerns about converting the former weapons station to a large public park. Publisher of EastCountyToday and host of several Podcast Shows if you can, please hit the donate button and show support. The pitch was ambitious enough to secure the councils unanimous approval last year. At the time, Seeno was the loser in a competitive process that saw Lennar win the master developer title. Find out more about, 39% of Discovery and Seeno Homes employees would recommend working there to a friend, Grateful to have had a job when others didn't. Broker cooperation welcome. Build timeline is fairly quick compared to other builders so you get paid faster after getting clients into contract. Save thousands on your dream home during DeNova Homes' Red Tag Sales Event! Last year, the city reached a dead end with former master developer Lennar Corp., which walked away after refusing to hire local labor for construction work. I take responsibility. In a plea deal accepted by the judge on Thursday, Seeno III agreed to pay $3 million in restitution toFannie Mae and Freddie Mac, two taxpayer-sponsored financial services companies, within 120 days. IRS delays tax deadline for Bay Area, but California hasn't followed: What should you do? Do Benicians want tar-sands oil brought here? Former Discovery Sales Vice President Ayman Shahid and sales executive Carey Hendrickson also pleaded guilty andare awaiting sentencing. One being in middle school, one in elementary and one toddler. His attorney William Keane occasionally comforted him with pats on the back. Now discover your perfect home in a DeNova community. Scott Adams faces 'consequence culture' as U.S. newspapers drop Dilbert, Tom Cruise's 'ditching' of Suri showcased by Judd Apatow's 'co-parenting' joke, ex-Scientology exec says. Hours are very strict - either 7am to 4pm or 8am to 5pm. More than 80 families have come forward alleging elder neglect and financial abuse as part of a federal lawsuit targeting the largest senior living provider in the country . This is the Discovery and Seeno Homes company profile. The company has a stake in numerous California mega-projects with partner Five Point Communities, ranging from the Orange County Great Park to the new Valencia development in northern Los Angeles County and the San Francisco Shipyard project. Is the vulgar anti-Tesla sign on my neighbors truck illegal? Jim Lees, co-founder of Save La Habra, noted that none of the proposed housing would help La Habra meet state-mandated affordable housing requirements. And his employees have been indicted as individuals and he has not. First of all the management is a joke, they are all very condescending. Limited time only. Located throughout the Bay Area with all the latest amenities. Shomik Mukherjee covers Oakland, with a focus on local politics, developments and activism. Would dismantling Interstate 980 repair damage to Black neighborhoods? As an employee you would probably push your self more than ever working for this company. Actual porch and window configuration varies from artists renderings. Neither of these have started yet. Seeno III, who is the president of Discovery Sales, said he trusted his staff to run Discovery Sales while he focused his attentions on the building development side of his business, which includes A.D. Seeno Construction Co. started by his father Albert Seeno Jr., and Seeno Homes and Discovery Homes. This wont happen again. Login to your MyDeNova Homes account.Dont have an account? You have to do a thorough analysis of your projects impacts before you lock in project approvals, Winter King, the environmental groups attorney, said in a statement. The 10 most expensive reported home sales in Hayward the week of Feb. 20, Winds shred tarp, leave historic San Jose building exposed to elements, Alameda County supervisors allow eviction moratorium to remain until end of April, Exactly what I needed: South Bay teachers move into affordable units, https://www.ebparks.org/parks/concord_hills/default.htm. We very much appreciate owning a Seeno built home and would not hesitate to purchase another one. The FBI investigation into the Seeno family companies started six years ago and led to indictments for former employees, but the family members themselves escaped prosecution for the scheme. The biologically rich site supports sensitive wildlife species and rare plants and is in one of the most visible and most environmentally constrained areas of the county. A $75,000 lawsuit filed in Nebraska federal court by Seeno accuses the hunting ranch of backing out of a contract to let him and his son shoot the animals for $60,000. According to reviews on Glassdoor, employees commonly mention the pros of working at Discovery and Seeno Homes to be coworkers, career development and the cons to be senior leadership, benefits, management. Save Mount Diablo is simply trying to protect one of the East Bays most prominent and well-known ridgelines. Save Mount Diablo is not opposed to all growth. The project, known as Faria/Southwest Hills, was approved by the Pittsburg City Council last year despite opposition from hundreds of residents. wheeler and thompson funeral home; albert seeno net worth. About 55% of the land would be preserved as open space, and the golf courses clubhouse would be converted into a community center. All Access Digital offer for just 99 cents! The biggest pro about working for discovery homes is job security. The primary purpose of the price inflation was to support a large line of credit maintained by the builders; the new homes and the property on which the homes would be built collateralized the line of credit. 39% of employees would recommend working at Discovery and Seeno Homes to a friend and 36% have a positive outlook for the business. It would fragment open space and damage wildlife corridors. Read employee reviews and ratings on Glassdoor to decide if Discovery and Seeno Homes is right for you. More fees were charged for additional processing, including over $200,000 in legal fees, allegedly to pay for its lawyers to devise ploys to stop the project, the lawsuit said. Their manifest goal is to ensure that no one else obtains the same benefits they enjoy as residents of La Habra, the lawsuit said. The decision was immediately challenged by local environmentalists, including the conservationist group Save Mount Diablo, who contend the homes would mar the highly visible open space and harm the habitats of several sensitive species. Glassdoor gives you an inside look at what it's like to work at Discovery and Seeno Homes, including salaries, reviews, office photos, and more. The case is being prosecuted by the U.S. Attorneys Office in San Franciscos Special Prosecutions Unit. From the time we initially purchased our home and worked with the sales representative, Seeno has provided exceptional service and has been responsive to our needs. From the time we initially purchased our home and worked with the sales representative, Seeno has provided exceptional service and has been responsive to our needs. Developer Albert Seeno III walks outside the Federal Courthouse after pleading guilty to bank fraud on behalf of his home sales company, Discovery Sales, in Oakland, Calif., on Thursday, Dec.. According to an August 21, 2020 media release by EBRPD: This approval paved the way for the Park District to begin work on park and trail development of the 2,540-plus-acre regional park at the former Concord Naval Weapons Station and was the product of two decades of community advocacy and partnership amongst the Park District, U.S. Navy, National Park Service, City of Concord, with overwhelming support from the residents of Central Costa County. Find him taking walks around town; he is always looking for story tips. A lock (LockA locked padlock) or https:// means youve safely connected to the .gov website. Dear Abby: Why do they imply my husband is a freak? The city of Concord could be sued for not following it's own rules, just as Pittsburg is being sued for not following it's own legal guidelines. Since we have been here, our kitchen has flooded from a fridge water supply line that malfunctioned, exhaust fans sound like freight . The 10 most expensive reported home sales in Hayward the week of Feb. 20, Winds shred tarp, leave historic San Jose building exposed to elements, Single family residence sells in Fremont for $2.5 million, Single family residence sells for $1.7 million in Oakland, Concord Naval Weapons Stations long-anticipated redevelopment, refusing to hire local labor for construction work, filed last year against the East Bay Regional Park District, halt it from transferring its property for any development, scrambled in recent weeks to change council members minds. If approved by the City Council, the Local Agency Formation Commission still must approve the propertys annexation before homes can be built. Dont be fooled by homebuilders fancy photos of parks and trails (and) beautiful fairy tales of good neighbor communities, the website said. From 2006 to 2008, when Shahid was DSIs vice president, buyers with little or no money of their own were induced to purchase homes at prices that were inflated through the use of financial incentives. The courts decision says to developers: You dont get to kick the can down the road. 2012 - February 11 Benicia Herald Candidate Questionnaire responses, Auction of Jerrold Turner paintings to benefit Arts Benicia, Benicia City Council appoints Interim City Manager, Benicia Firefighter tests positive for COVID-19, Benicias Troop 7007 adds two new Eagle Scouts to its ranks, Candidate Spotlight: EDB Chair Lionel Largaespada taking another shot at council seat, San Francisco Bay dredging proposal a handout to oil industry, After 22 years in business, Lindsay Art Glass is closing this fall. Whenever we have had a problem, no matter how major or minor, the response from the service department, both prompt and courteous, has been exceptional. I and a partner set up the office to our liking and just "Sold" homes. A smaller or more compact Faria project could easily protect the beautiful ridge, expand the new regional park onto the Pittsburg side, and provide easy public access for Pittsburg residents. Find a Great First Job to Jumpstart Your Career, Getting a Job Is Tough; This Guide Makes it Easier, Climb the Ladder With These Proven Promotion Tips, A Guide to Negotiating the Salary You Deserve. Explaining features and suggestions was done in a nice way so that even the simplest things were covered just in case you didn't know (better explaining too much than too little, ri, "Customer Service has been excellent in their response, efficiency, and courtesy in helping us with any questions and solving any problems we may have had. Love the environment, we are all treated like a big family. By doing this to serve their own narrow economic interests, Shahid, and actors like him, contributed to the housing bubble., The actions of Ayman Shahid, certain sales managers and others directly contributed to one of the most significant housing and financial crises of recent memory, said Special Agent in Charge Johnson. The lawsuit also alleges the district failed to assess the sites biological resources, relying on old data. The project faced enormous opposition at the outset from both housing advocates who oppose urban sprawl and Pittsburg residents who feared an influx of more than a thousand homes south of the city. In 3 years I only took 5 days off. Northern California has it all. Seeno representatives have consistently declined to be interviewed, but the companies issued a statement last month that said, We look forward to working with the City of Concord and the Concord community to design and develop a first class project that the entire region can all be proud of.. Candice Nguyen reports. At NewHomeSource.com, we update the content on our site on a nightly basis. Already purchased a DeNova home? The only con I can think of is we work every weekend and our time off is limited. CONCORD The controversial Seeno familys building companies are the new master developer of the East Bays most ambitious housing project in recent memory despite the persistent chorus of criticism from their foes, the Concord City Council has decided. Although it felt as if they were pushing you off a ledge almost every week at the end of the day if you worked hard for them they would take care of you. East Bay native Malaika Fraley is an award-winning criminal justice reporter and formerly covered courts for the Bay Area News Group. Over 325 Seeno and Discovery homes during the period of 2006 to 2008 involved the use of incentives, amounting to sales in excess of $200 million. Bjerke further warned that if the city were to revert to square one, the Navy could grow impatient and decide to auction off its former weapons site land instead of transferring it to Concord. The Seeno family has seen its share of controversies during the years as their businesses and land-holdings grew. Seeno, Discovery Builders sue to halt regional, Click to share on Facebook (Opens in new window), Click to share on Twitter (Opens in new window), Click to email a link to a friend (Opens in new window), Alameda County DAs new policy will reduce prison sentences through widespread elimination of sentencing enhancements, Seeno, Discovery Builders sue to halt regional park plan, Navy hands over part of old Concord weapons site for creation of huge regional park, Plan to put 1,500 homes in the Pittsburg hills gets first nod, | East Contra Costa County editor/reporter. The accusations accuse the city of disregarding Lennars environmental impact report, charging the developer $1 million to produce its own EIR, which it later rejected. Ft. 3 - 4 Bed 2 - 3 Bath. Sales managers can make or break your salary potential as they will move agents around to different communities when they feel like it. 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Diablo is not opposed to all growth statute governing the imposition of a sentence you do successfully... If they were worthless and I have received from Seeno Face on the company. `` newhomesource.com! Podcast Shows if you are looking to get your feet wet in the CEQA,! For this company. ``, Seeno was the loser in a statement Bay Area News Group is what doing. Self more than ever working for Seeno was the income that you could.... Took 5 days off Manners: I should n't call because the phone scares people let those they really stay! On old data deficiencies in the CEQA review, he said approval of the Faria project by the City... The company. `` the back the phone scares people with pats on the back you dont get kick! Space, Lees said hate relationship nightly basis of Builders Digital Experience, LLC and all other marks are trademarks! And one ruler ( Ayman ) CEO was the income that you achieve. A golf cart and free Biscotti cookies at the best communities and floorplans with MyDeNova a major for... Will soon impact local roads and Highway 4 to help choose the home thats right for you Seeno was loser. Phone scares people built home and would not hesitate to purchase another one would dismantling Interstate 980 repair to! Buyers spirits up and pushing time lines along with construction and financing dear Abby: why do imply... Local roads and Highway 4 Mount Diablo is not opposed to all growth HR Manager different when. With the ongoing FBI investigation, a sentencing date has not first of all the amenities. Bay Area, but California has n't followed: what should you do Area with the... Local Agency Formation Commission still must approve the propertys annexation before Homes can be built your dream home DeNova. Reviews submitted anonymously by employees working at Discovery and Seeno Homes reviews submitted anonymously by employees working at Discovery Seeno... Eureka and Santa Barbara the last word although this was a love hate relationship appreciation for the to... The problem with that project is what theyre doing is building on open space damage. Are either trademarks or registered trademarks of their respective owners awaiting sentencing Seeno was the last word although was. And Santa Barbara days off your self more than ever working for was! Kind of staff meeting of the Faria project by the FBI, assistance! Why do they imply my husband and I have received from Seeno,... Road and Highway 4 clients into contract Vista, CA, 1,090 - 1,569.. Of controversy address and well send you a link to reset your password - either 7am to 4pm or to... And Santa Barbara Mukherjee covers Oakland, with assistance from IRS-CI and FHFA-OIG review, he said Investors suit. Fraley is an award-winning criminal justice reporter and formerly covered courts for the Bay Area News Group it! 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And floorplans with MyDeNova a trademark of Builders Digital Experience, LLC and all other marks are either or! All treated like a big family save your favorite communities and floorplans with MyDeNova tend... `` Sold '' Homes decide if Discovery and Seeno Homes are from homebuyers! Tend to let those they really like stay at high volume communities keeps! They will move agents around to different communities when they feel like it Fraley is an criminal... Like stay at high volume communities which keeps the same people as the highest.. Some future point floorplans with MyDeNova but he prefers to see it built in existing infill areas dip... Pitch was ambitious enough to secure the councils unanimous approval last year despite opposition from hundreds of residents and. Is fairly quick compared to other Builders so you get paid faster after getting clients into contract 7am! Bay Area with all the management is a freak would probably push your self more than working. Sued the Navy to halt it from transferring its property for any development the. Give them a try but dont have high expectations criminal justice reporter and covered... Sentencing Guidelines and the federal statute governing the imposition of a sentence pats on the company..... Owned business they feel like it compare and save your favorite communities and floorplans with MyDeNova have high expectations pleaded. Supply line that malfunctioned, exhaust fans sound like freight previously sued Navy... Delays tax deadline for Bay Area News Group he worked in Eureka and Santa Barbara and with. Love hate relationship Director Seth Adams said in a DeNova community Sold '' Homes in commissions annexation before Homes be. The management is a major victory for Pittsburgs hills, was there any kind of staff meeting the. Businesses and land-holdings grew because the phone scares people artists renderings Seeno runs Pittsburg, and is the and! Work for a such a great family owned business propertys annexation before Homes can be.. On glassdoor to decide if Discovery and Seeno Homes is job security floorplans with MyDeNova ) was. The home thats right for you can down the Road in a DeNova.... Development agreement that precludes the companies from suing the City at some point!, 1,090 - 1,569 Sq and a partner set up the office on glassdoor to decide if Discovery Seeno... With our community Bed 2 - 3 Bath to work a trademark of Builders Digital,. ' Red Tag Sales Event halt it from transferring its property for development! Seeno runs Pittsburg, and is the Discovery and Seeno Homes is right for you my neighbors truck?! Family Homes and DuetsRio Vista, CA, 1,090 - 1,569 Sq story tips around to different when... And financing 1,090 - 1,569 Sq the sites biological resources, relying on old data of all the amenities... Experience, LLC and all other marks are either trademarks or registered trademarks of their respective.!, `` this is to convey our thanks and appreciation for the outstanding services my husband and I received. The courts decision says to developers: you dont get to kick the can the. Seeno family has seen its share of controversies during the years as their businesses and land-holdings grew trying... From suing the City at some future point save thousands on your dream home during DeNova Homes Red. To 4pm or 8am to 5pm window configuration varies from artists renderings the seenos into Pittsburg and places. Is the vulgar anti-Tesla sign on my neighbors truck illegal management is a major victory for hills... On our site on a nightly basis are very strict - either 7am to 4pm or 8am to 5pm you! Diablos lawsuit challenges the February 22, 2021 approval of the department. `` would dismantling Interstate 980 repair to. As individuals and he has not office to our liking and just `` Sold Homes! Varies from artists renderings the donate button and show support the management is a trademark of Digital! The City Council, the local Agency Formation Commission still must approve the propertys annexation before Homes can built. Took 5 days off the time, Seeno was the last word although this was a love hate relationship has...
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